structural engineers, more so than I do just about any other engineer in the design industry space. I'm not saying that just to get your head, it's just what it is, it was just my experience.
John Wheaton [09:54] That's an interesting commentary. I mean, the same could be true in the legal and accounting world. Law firms hire the University of Chicago, Yale, and Harvard Law. Finance people on Wall Street, they're not going to come to Valparaiso or the University of Akron. They're going to hire people in a certain category from Ivy League, and then there are other categories. I'm a pragmatist. I am not an academic. I'm a journeyman and I like structural engineering but for me, structural engineering is a means to a greater end. And the means to the greater end is how does that inform me and help support the value that I can provide in the marketplace in the form of saving on material, saving on our clients on material, and installation on ease of working relationship. I've migrated more to kind of, I would say an executive level design professional, which is normal for somebody in my age and time in their industry. But, I like more of the holistic side. I love architectural engineering. Actually, without really knowing it, the path that God led me on really allowed me to be a structural engineer in an architecturally oriented business that help kind of push both buttons, you know, trip both levers at the same time. So I love the fact that we work with folks on both sides, and we can help people achieve the vision of what they want their building to look like. Randy Wilburn [11:25] Yeah, without a doubt. I like that fact. I know a lot of structural engineers that obviously you have to work well with architects. You have to work well with so many different disciplines in order to get the job done. And let's face it, if you're building anything with any verticality to it, you need a structural engineer on your team in order to get things done. I'd love to find out John because there are so many things I want to talk to you about. We may have to make this a two-part so we may have to bring you back to talk about some other stuff. But I would love to find out at what point did you decide that you know what I like working for somebody else, but I want to hang out my own shingle. I want to do something on my own as opposed to working for somebody else. When did you make that mental shift and what did that look like for you?
John Wheaton [12:14] That's a good one. I was pretty focused early on learning my craft and trade. I went to MKA Architectural Metal. So I was at PPGs Custom Architectural Metals Division, and I had to move on from there. And actually, there was a point in my life, let me give you a little bit of a roundabout answer so you know a little bit more about who I am. So there
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