care for the first time. They've never had this procedure done to them, and it's a unique thing in their life, so they look at it very differently and very cautiously. I'll use a personal example. I've had both of my knees replaced. The day of the surgery, the surgeon is talking very casually about what's going to go on, how this is going to go, and what the procedure is and so on and so on. It's very blasé, not unprofessional or not inappropriate in any way, but this was his experience. My experience was I've never had this done, and if everything goes well, I'm going to have this done once in my lifetime, and it's a big damn deal to me. From his viewpoint, it was no big deal. I do this all the time. This is shooting fish in a barrel. To me, it was a big deal. To go back to Bill's point, that if we could encourage our colleagues to be a little bit more empathic, to be a little bit more aware of the caution and of the concern that they bring to that adjusting table that we simply don't have because of our experience. We have a level of professional caution and professional safety issues that we're aware of. That's for sure, but we know how simple it can be to adjust a cervical spine, how comfortable it can be to adjust a cervical spine, and that it's not a big deal, but if you've never had it done before, that level of apprehension that's brought to it is something that perhaps as a community, we need to pay significantly more attention to create a greater level of comfort and security for that person receiving that care for the first time. Thank you. That was awesome. I really appreciate how your information dovetailed what Bill had to say when it comes to a patient, especially new patients, their apprehension when it comes to getting their cervical spine adjusted. I want to also point out that where talking about chiropractic and stroke, at some point, we really have to clarify it is not a profession stroke. It's a procedure associated with a stroke, which would be the chiropractic adjustment, not the chiropractic profession. Maybe a little bit of semantics, but I think if we're talking about communication, we need to start clearing that up. Dr. Murkowski, you've testified on so many malpractice claims that have to do with vertebral artery dissection, as well as others. You've seen a lot of different allegations and scenarios out there. What is the takeaway from your perspective for the doctor in their own office that they'll come out once a year to go to a continuing education seminar or to something here or something there, but they're not very involved and don't really get a lot of the information that a lot of us that are on the road and speaking at different events or participating may be privy to? What could be the takeaway for them from your experience in these claims that you work with? I guess I have many issues, and I'll address yours first. Again, thanks for letting me participate. No doctor, I don't care what the specialty is, can guarantee a procedure. I think one of the main issues for your listeners are that they have to remember that it's not the procedure so much. It's everything that leads up to the procedure has to be documented properly. In other words, did you take time to talk to the patient? Patient communication, I know, is Mr. Esteb's specialty, and that's very important from my perspective when I look at these cases. How did the doctor communicate with the patient about the procedures that they're going to do? In other words, was there a good patient interview? Was there a good case history? Did you do the exam? Were there x-rays taken? Did you tell the patient what to expect?
Dr. Hoffman:
Dr. Murkowski:
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