chiropractor I know, and we'll get more into that communication, but that's exactly the type of situation that we're talking about because even when Bill indicated, which I agree, he indicated that you don't hear a lot from the patients, but once it comes up, it comes up. It's really about how do you address those issues at the moment in time, and kudos to you for doing a terrific job on that. I want to bring in John because John is our attorney, our legal expert when it comes to chiropractic being accused of a causation when it comes to these dissections that could lead to a stroke. He spent the last two years researching everything that there is about chiropractic and strokes. I don't think that there's many people on the planet that now know more than John does. John, we're coming from this today at a little bit different perspective than we usually talk about. How, through ChiroSecure, we get to defend our doctors on these allegations based on the information that you've helped to uncover and make more aware of, but what about the public? What do you see in terms of changing the conversation so that we can move off of the spot we're stuck in with the media controlling what is placed on us rather than what may be real? Thanks for being here. Thank you Dr. Hoffman. It is an honor to join this group. I was appreciative of the response just given in regard to the question posed. I can't imagine having it posed during cardiac rehab. That is courage, indeed, to face that additional stress at that time. The easiest way I have found in communicating the simple position, this position in the simplest terms, is really identifying the timeline. Plaintiffs and those patients under misconception who have initiated suit usually draw the following timeline. Neck pain, chiropractic manipulation, VAD, and then stroke. What we have to do is pull back and explain to the general public and the patients, indeed, who pose these questions that retrospectively it's the vertebral arterial dissection that is first to occur. That is what retrospectively causes the neck pain, which then in turn leads to the visit to the chiropractor. The evolution of the stroke, as we know by these various studies Dr. Clum referenced earlier, show that there's not causation. We just have a natural evolution, unfortunately, rare as it might be, but we got to start at the beginning point that the confusion generally in the public is that the manipulation causes the dissection. We know from the science and the medicine, that's just not the case. The innervation of the artery with nerves that cause the pain response is the triggering event leading these individuals to visit their primary care or their chiropractic healthcare providers. Dr. Clum, just to correct you on a small point. I'm sensitive to this because my son went to the University of Pennsylvania. Often, they accused him of going to Penn State. The Pennsylvania study was, indeed, by physicians. Dr. Harbaugh, who is on our side in regard to the vision that we have. He's affiliated with Penn State. He did that third study you mentioned from Pennsylvania. We've got the Optum Study, the Cassidy Study, and this new Penn State Study by Dr. Harbaugh all reaching the same conclusion that there's no foundation whatsoever for this alleged causal connection between the manipulation and the stroke. I hope that answers it. I could go on forever. As you know, I'm pretty passionate about this topic, but I don't want to take more time than appropriate. That's one of the things, John, that has been an honor to work with you as a result of because it's one thing for us chiropractors to preach to chiropractors how hard it is to actually have a causation rather than an association with these stroke incidents, but here
John Salvucci:
Dr. Hoffman:
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