I love the title The People’s Palace . Obviously that’s a reclamation—we don’t think of ‘palace’ and ‘people,’ so the combination of those words is important.
site that feels critical to talk about with The People’s Palace ?
it’s a reflection of the time,’ but that’s also what they say about the people who enslaved others, right?
JH: Well, there’s been a lot of dis- cussion around dismantling many things—dismantling white suprem- acy, colonization, statues—and I’m not really calling for this building to be torn down. I’m more interested in being in conversation about what these things mean, what these built environ- ments are there to support, and then how we can rethink or create interven- tions that bridge these worlds. And I’ll be curious about what conversations come up, how we can move forward in a way that creates environments where all people feel like they belong. MK: What’s your utopian result of peo- ple seeing this performance? Or what kind of conversations would lead to praxis as opposed to just another con- versation about an art piece? JH: Well, I think it would be really great for a group of architects and artists to get together and explore what are the things that we can honor about this architecture and what are the things that we can intro- duce to bridge this really gaping hole.
MK: Yes, ‘that was just what happened.’
JH: Yeah. This is what it was called when it was built.
JH: And it wasn’t like Asian people weren’t here; they were here. There were Black people here, all kinds of people here. They weren’t the major- ity, but they were here. MK: There was enough representation to be included. JH: That’s just the thing, I mean, even in the Exposition [1915 Panama-Pacific International Exposi- tion], there was a Primitive Pavilion, where visitors got to look at these ‘underdeveloped Native cultures,’ while around the corner were gor- geous examples of the Beaux Arts and European architecture and cul- ture movement; we can see which was considered to be more aestheti- cally beautiful and intellectually superior. But we, of course, know that to not be true. MK: Yeah, it’s always the vaulting of European intelligence. It is interest- ing though for a building to fulfill its intended intention, yet be modeled after whiteness. I mean, it fulfills its intentions for “the people,” but “the people” aren’t represented within the architecture. JH: Well, again, it’s true that at that point, white people—well, it’s still true—were the dominant voice and everything else was considered lesser. [Thomas] Jefferson was really influential in this movement, partic- ularly with the Beaux Arts and these classical styles as representing these civic ideals, and at the same time enslaving people. MK: So we’re talking about architec- ture and working against those sym- bols into more inclusivity. Is there anything beyond what’s on your web-
MK: Oh really! I didn’t know that.
JH: That’s what the mayor [James “Sunny Jim” Rolph] called it. That was his desire, to create a place where people felt like they were being hon- ored and had a place to feel celebrated. MK: Majestic and grand, that “the people” are allowed to feel that, have that invitation. JH: At the end of the day, it ends up that “the people” are very specific and not inclusive. But when I was at City Hall with an architectural historian, he mentioned that for him, the diversity of people in the building dispels the ideologies of whiteness and patriarchy. I don’t know if you’ve been there on a busy day, but there are like twenty wed- dings happening all at the same time [laughs], quinceañera celebrations, just so much activity. Really, every possible type of human is there doing something deeply meaningful to them. It feels like their place, their right, and I love that about the building. MK: That’s awesome. I didn’t know that. So it sounds like the intentions of the building are happening! JH: Yes. But I also feel that the architecture, what was chosen and what it represents on the physical plane, is the antithesis of that. This project is focused on the intentions of neoclassical design in civic archi- tecture. I think those intentions are very clear, even in the choices of the added statuary on display around the building. People might say, ‘Oh,
JH: We’re constantly navigating that relationship. I was trying to explain to someone that for us, we’ve been thinking about this since the moment we were conscious, and about how I work through these varying identities—that when I wake up and am going out, first I prepare Joanna, and then I prepare myself as a Black person.
JH: Yeah, it’s a very deep, heavy, sad loss. He was supposed to be in this piece—I’m dedicating it to him. He was such a deep wanderer and so incredibly gifted.
JH: I really miss him a lot. I’m think- ing about certain parts of this piece and about him, the conversations we would be having right now, both ver- bally and non-verbally. MK: And also as someone who’s prob- ably been in your work the longest, the loss of that legacy of communica- tion and collaboration, I imagine it’s quite large for you.
MK: Oh my God, so gifted. Like his ability to shapeshift…
MK: Okay—we’ll put the word out! That would be amazing! [both laugh]
JH: Yes, shapeshifting.
JH: There are some conversations about architecture and whiteness get- ting some traction right now because it’s all operating on such a sublimi- nal level at this point. People are not walking around in their environments aware of the lineage of whiteness. MK: Well, I think that particularly for white people, whiteness is invisible, and so when you go into these sort of vaulted spaces, white people generally aren’t asking that question of who’s missing, or ‘how is my whiteness loud in this space and time,’ as opposed to just assuming it as the norm. White- ness is not invisible at all to people who are not white.
MK: I wanted to talk briefly about Robert Henry Johnson.
MK: … was so remarkable and it looked like he did it with such ease, but I also know the appearance of ease takes a toll. JH: He worked deeply on his craft, he really did. He worked a lot of things out, studied a lot. He was one of the few people I would only have to say a few words to and he knew exactly what I was after, almost like there was a kind of telepathic connection. MK: I think part of the deep wander- ing of him was also that his instincts were so attuned from the vastness of how he inhabited the world.
JH: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. [sadly]
MK: So lovely to connect; thank you Joanna.
MK: I was looking at your website and it was wild to see photos of me and Robert from Departure and Arrival [2007]. He was such an integral part of your process from the very begin- ning. I feel like he was such a mas- terful carrier of narrative in his body, of storytelling. So I don’t know if I want to ask what it’s like not having Robert Henry in your processes right now, just wanting to bring that huge absence into our space.
JH: So when do I get to interview you?! [both laugh]
MAURYA KERR is a bay area-based choreogra- pher, writer, filmmaker, and the artistic director of tinypistol. Much of her work, across disciplines, is focused on black and brown people reclaim- ing their birthright to both wonderment and the quotidian. She is the Resident Curator for ODC Theater’s 2024/25 season and recently published her first poetry chapbooks, MUTTOLOGY with Small Harbor Publishing and tommy noun with C&R Press.
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