TZL Open: Welcome to the Zweig Letter Podcast putting architectural engineering, planning, and environmental consulting advice and guidance in your ear. Zweig Group's team of experts has spent more than three decades elevating the industry by helping AEP and environmental consulting firms thrive. These podcasts deliver invaluable management, industry client marketing, and HR advice directly to you free of charge. The Zweig Letter Podcasts elevating the Design Industry one episode at a time Randy Wilburn: Hey, folks, Randy Wilburn here from the Zweig Letter Podcast. I'm your host and I'm excited to be with you for another episode. It's funny because I don't record these, like, every week where I do with some of my other podcasts, but when I do, I typically batch record these episodes. And so it's always great to connect with some really amazing people in that very short period of time that I have to have these conversations. And actually, the guest that we have on today is someone that I have befriended, I want to say, over the past several months. For those of you who know, I got involved with Gable Media, and I've. I've been doing some business development work with them. One of the people I had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of was Cherise Lakeside. Cherise is a senior specification writer with RDH Building Science, and she's also the host of the RCAD detailed podcast. We're kindred spirits because we do a podcast. And so I thought, man, it would be great to have her come on the Zweigler podcast, something that I've been doing for eight years now, and kind of share her story about podcasting and about just the unlikely fact that she fell into this opportunity and has just taken it and run with it. And when she shares with you some of the impact that the detailed podcast has had both for her and for her client, I think you'll find it really interesting because I've been saying for as long as someone would listen to me that you should be doing a podcast. Every design firm should have a podcast, full stop. And if for no other reason, than just to be another way to extend your brand to the world as well as internally extend your brand to your team for the purposes of personal and professional development. And that's my rant. And I'm going to get off my soapbox
now because I have such an amazing guest here with me today, Cherise Lakeside. Without, any further delay, welcome to the Zweig Letter Podcast.
Cherise Lakeside: Thank you, Randy.
Randy Wilburn: Absolutely. Well, we're happy to have you. So listen, we always start with getting an individual superhero origin story. Right? Because we always want to know, why should somebody even listen to someone? But I would love for you just to share a little bit of your background and experience in the design industry, and you can go back as far as you want. I always joke you can go back to the womb, kindergarten, high school, or wherever you want to go, to tell the story about how Cherise came to be. Cherise Lakeside: How Cherise came to be. Well, as far as the design industry, we'll start in high school.
Randy Wilburn: There we go.
Cherise Lakeside: I was a senior in high school, and I had enough credits that I didn't have to go to school all day. And a friend of my mom said, hey, we need a receptionist in our construction company. So would you like to work half days? And then on school vacation days or breaks, you can work full-time. So I would go to school half the day, and then I'd hop on a city bus and take it out to this construction company. There was no plan during my senior year in high school to work in the design industry. I wouldn't even have known at that point what a spec writer was. But I was fortunate enough in that company for the one year that I worked there that my mom's friend was willing to teach me anything I wanted to learn. And I've always been a pretty curious person. I don't like to be bored. I've got a little bit of this. Okay, OCD is not the right word, but I have a brain that never stops. It actually interferes with my sleep sometimes because I'll wake up at two in the morning and I'm. I just started going to town in my head. And so I worked there for a year, and then I graduated. Went on my merry way, doing some other things for a couple of years, trying to figure out who I wanted to be when I grew up. I'm still trying to figure that out. And a couple of years later, my mom again. My mom, I suppose I better give her some credit, was my entrance into this business. She had been working as a financial analyst for Freightliner, and they had a bunch of layoffs and she got laid off. And I didn't live at home anymore at that point, but my little sister didn't. She was a single mom, so she was working for a temp agency for a while just to keep food on the table till she got back into corporate America. She was working for an architecture firm as an administrative assistant type of person, which she had no intention of staying in. So she told this firm they wanted to hire her, and she's like, I'm not going to be doing this for a living. But I got this daughter, and she could probably be
used to doing something a little more productive with her life. At that time, I might have been sewing a few wild oats, figuring out where things were going to go. And so they ended up giving me a job there. And I was there for 22 years and basically started answering the phone, typing memos, running copies, those kinds of things. And once again, I'm a pretty curious person. And so it was a lot of, why am I doing this? What does this mean? How does this work? Well, 22 years later, I was doing everything in that firm but drawing. I'm an architect, writing specs, doing all the contracts, doing all the construction administration things. No kidding. I did everything but draw. And at the time, I didn't realize the value of the experience I was getting. I worked for three men, all substantially older than me, who, at a time when women maybe didn't have the same seats at the table as they do now, were willing to teach me anything I wanted to learn. And so in 2008, when the economy tanked, is when they closed the firm. And I was terrified just like, nobody's going to hire me. I was just a kid when I started here. I'm not an architect. And that turned out not to be true. And one of our consultants, an MEP consultant here in Portland, who I had worked as our consultant for that firm for 22 years, said, oh, we'll hire you. And they had originally hired me to be in an administrative position, which I was well beyond that by that point. And I would say it took about 30 days for them to change my job title. And so I was in charge of rewriting all their master specs, first the masters they use for their company, and then establishing a whole different program for writing specs, training people in the firm, and establishing a QA QC process. I spent about seven years there and then went back to architecture. And I've been working up until rdh, where I'm at now. I worked in architecture for another five or seven years. Now I'm m working for a building science firm. What's unique about that, and I think what leads right into our conversation about podcasting, is not only have I been in this industry a long time, and I'm truly trained in the trenches, they teach you a lot of different things in school. Trust me, I'm not advocating for not getting a college education. My journey is unique, and it's Been a lot harder because I didn't. But being trained in the trenches and crossing the lines, crossing to the dark side. I never tell anybody which one of those is the dark side, though. From construction to architecture to MEP engineering, working with engineers, back to architecture, and now in building science, you have a different lens when you look at the industry, you get caught in your bubble sometimes in this industry, it can be very siloed sometimes. And all that matters is what's going on in my M world here, even though no building goes up without every member of the project team. And when you start crossing lines, you start seeing how the other half lives and you start having, I think, a little bit more empathy and understanding that each discipline needs to produce their work product in a different way. And that ends up changing the way that you work. I had one left still at home, and I had more time in my life and I joined CSI, which is a construction specifications institute, got CDT certified, which I've now been teaching for 10, 10, 11, 12 years, something like that. And that opened up these doors that I'd never
even thought about. And one of those biggest doors shout out to you, Paul Traynor, if you're listening. I'll know if you listen to this. One of those doors was having my first speaking engagement as a result of Paul telling me, I think you need to do some teaching. You're so passionate about your work a lot. You're really good with people. I said to him pretty much the same thing I said to Gable when they called me about the podcast and told him he was insane. Who's going to listen to me in our industry with my journey? I'm not an architect. They're going to tell me I'm full of you know what and kick me out of the room. And he told me I was wrong. And he convinced me. So I picked the first that he convinced me to apply for on what is our big stage, which is the CSI National Conference. That was the first time I ever spoke in public. So fast forward, that was about 10 years ago. And that I had never done any kind of speaking engagement outside of just normal kind of, here's where we're at, at work kind of things. And I've. I, don't know how many it is now. The last time I counted it was over 400. And that was a year ago. So it's probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 altogether now.
Randy Wilburn: Speaking engagement is what you're referring to?
Cherise Lakeside: Yes.
Randy Wilburn: Okay.
Cherise Lakeside: And that is what ultimately. And that and getting also involved in social media, because I thought social media was the stupidest thing ever. I'll own it. I'm totally fine with saying I was so wrong. I went to a presentation that my friend Joy Davis, who was another big advocate for me in my early days of total imposter syndrome and lack of confidence, went to a presentation she did on social media after I told her I thought it was a bunch of garbage. And she said, come to my presentation and then tell me that when you're done. And I said, okay. And I sat through it, and I'm going, oh, okay. She's got some points here. Does it work that way? I got involved on social media, and that's how, eventually I ended up meeting Mark Lepage and Demetrius. I knew them and was connected to them on social media for a number of years. Never met him in person. Yeah, I was doing the podcast for about a year and a half before I finally met Mark in person, which is just bizarre. And so there are all kinds of side stories in there. That's kind of the main. Hopefully, it’s the short version of that journey. Randy Wilburn: Well, first of all, I, really appreciate you sharing that. I think what you just shared early on is something that young people should hear in terms of getting involved with the design industry and how they do it. There are a lot of opportunities for people to learn what this industry is all about, how you cut your teeth in it, and how you get started. And, I mean, your whole approach is, I think, refreshing to hear. I see you
now, and I see where you are and what you've been able to accomplish. I didn't know a lot about what you just shared, but I think it's important for other people to hear that kind of story because it will encourage folks to get involved in getting into this industry and understand all of the benefits that this industry offers. And, I think your story is one of many that I've heard over the years. I've been involved with this industry since 97, and I've seen a lot as it pertains to recruiting in this space, working in marketing and a lot of other areas. But one of the things that I've always taken away about the design industry is that there are all kinds of opportunities in the space to work. And it is incumbent upon you as an individual, if this is an industry that you're interested in, that you should get involved, you should connect with people, that there's always going to be people like what, Cherise just described as some of the founders of the firm she used to work with that were willing to sit down and work with her. I've always seen people like that throughout my time in this industry that were willing architects, engineers, environmental consultants, planners were willing to sit down and kind of educate you. Even as a consultant in this space, I've gotten a lot of great lessons out of that. So I think your story is a refreshing story and a great reminder that anyone in this space needs to take the time to help out, certainly the next generation, and to encourage them to be a part of this industry because it is such a great and dynamic industry. But sometimes you just need to hear a story like yours, Cherise, that will get the ball rolling and get you moving forward. Cherise Lakeside: You are preaching to the choir. It's one of the reasons I teach the CDT certification program. That's 12 weeks twice a year, two hours a week for 12 weeks. So 24 hours of instruction. Not everybody in my class is a young professional, but there's a good chunk that is. And they're all over all the disciplines. And I share that story with them every time. And I also leave my door open for my students. I still get emails from students I had eight years ago, either sharing a success or telling me they took a different path, or I love it when they get done with their test and tell me, Cherise, your voice was in my ear the whole time. It's like, yes, that's what I'm trying to accomplish. Mentoring is important. And with all of our baby boomers leaving and Gen X being so small, I think that we are. We have a short now, even more so than we have in the past. And for me, I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for the mentors that I had. And I think we have a responsibility when we've been given a gift to pay that forward and give that gift to somebody else in whatever capacity we have to share that knowledge. Randy Wilburn: It is. It really is. And now you're preaching to this choir because I'm always saying to people, hey, mentoring is hugely important. The transfer of knowledge in this space, in this industry, from. Especially from the boomer generation, which they've transferred a lot of knowledge to Gen X in this space, but then also to millennials
and Gen Z, that there's a lot of opportunities for you to connect with amazing young people that can be like sponges and can gain insight and knowledge and understanding about this industry and what it represents. On the bigger picture in the grand scheme of things. And so I think it's important. I think every firm needs to have a fully blown mentoring program. It needs to be intentional. It can't be a matter of fact. And as I always tell people who are mentors, you actually should. If you mentor properly, you take away as much as you give. Cherise Lakeside: I said the same thing. I ran a Young Professionals Day for our national convention for about five years. And one of the pieces of that day was a speed mentoring meeting. They had 15 minutes, but it was divided in half. So for seven and a half or eight minutes, the young professional had to ask the mentor anything they wanted. And then for the other eight minutes, that, mentor had to ask the young professional anything they wanted. I handpicked the mentors. It was equal seats at the table. Don't ask anybody how to program your phone. They got a whole lecture from me beforehand. And it was such a dynamic. I miss that, we don't do it anymore. But it was such a dynamic event. And sometimes you just need to reach out a hint. They would go around. This was a few hours of this to each. They'd switch after 15 minutes to the next mentor. Some of these people are still in touch with each other all this time. As a result of that. It opens doors sometimes if you just help somebody put out a hand. Randy Wilburn: Yeah. I, want to say that design professionals are, are a very thoughtful group of people. They have to be based on the work, the line of work that you guys do. And I think a lot of that thoughtfulness comes out in a lot of different ways. But I also think that it's one of those things where you always need to be thinking about how can you get this next generation of young people to get involved. And anytime I can talk to a young person and they ask me about a career or different options that might be available to them, I talk to them about the design industry all the time. And I remind design professionals every time. And I sound like a broken record every time I go to, an event that I speak to them. It's like, you guys are responsible for the built environment and your role is hugely important in our society. You need to just recognize that the work that you do really does matter above and beyond that one project that you're currently working on. It's a much bigger picture that you're dealing with when it comes to design professionals and what they do. So I say that all the time because I often run into so many design professionals that struggle with, like, Imposter syndrome. And it's like, man, don't get me started. I mean, what you guys do really does matter. And I know you don't hear it enough, but. And so I say it a lot on, this podcast, and I'm sure the regular listeners will hear me say that quite a bit. But it is meant to edify and encourage more so than anything else, and to let design professionals know that keep doing what you're doing because, it does make a difference. And we have to be really intentional about
how we connect with this next generation of potential young people who will work in the space. I'm trying to encourage some of my kids to get involved in the design industry because I see the benefits that it brings being able to take a project from start to the challenges that you face during the project to completion. Just that satisfaction that comes along with that of any really good project, like a well-done project that's done, that you can actually physically drive down the street and look at on a regular basis and say, I designed that, or I designed this. And I always tell the famous joke that Chad. Kleinans, who is the president and CEO of Zweig Group, says that one day he and his wife were talking and she was asking about, like, kind of what he did. He was like, I designed those. And he was driving down the road and he was pointing to a culvert. And so she was like, that's just a ditch. And he was like, that's a culvert. And there is a specific method to how those have to be designed so that they do what they're able to do with regard to water runoff and all these other things and just the strength of the road itself. And so we sometimes don't recognize the beauty that goes into designing what, design professionals create in the first place. And so I think it's important for us to remember that. Cherise Lakeside: I agree. I couldn't agree more. If you ask my kids, what does your mom do for a living? It's a. She writes some books about buildings. So they're kind of like the instruction manual on how to build a building. And that's probably about the simplest but truest definition of what I do.
Randy Wilburn: Yeah.
Cherise Lakeside: As a specification writer. But I think when it comes to these younger people, I think the best thing we can do is meet them in their space. Don't expect them to meet us in ours.
Randy Wilburn: Yeah.
Cherise Lakeside: up in a different day and age. And I'm not saying we shouldn't share some of the wisdom we've taken from that journey. Absolutely should. But you, you need to come to their space. You need to understand their space. You need to help them in their space because they're not doing it the way we did it. I hate it when they hear that. Well, this is how I always did it. Well, we've always done it this way. they're called statements Cherise can't stand, and that's one of them. You cannot approach a younger professional with that mindset and expect them, if you don't have a relationship first, if they don't bond with you first, you're going to get nowhere no matter what comes out of your mouth. Piece of advice for some of us who might be a little older than 25.
Randy Wilburn: Yeah, well, no, and you're absolutely right. And I think it's a good reminder, especially for those that are out there recruiting on behalf of their respective firms, that you do have to hold hands a little bit more with this next generation, but then also don't feel like there's a lot that they can teach you too. And so there's. That's why I said what I said about mentoring and mentorship is that it really is a two-way street. And a lot of times, unfortunately, when a lot of people think about mentoring, it's like, oh, I just got to pour into this person and it's just one-sided. But that couldn't be further from the truth. Keep that in mind.
Cherise Lakeside: Absolutely.
Randy Wilburn: So I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about your journey into podcasting because, I mean, would you consider yourself an unlikely podcaster? Cherise Lakeside: That might be a little bit of an understatement. I did a very short stint with a podcast a number of years ago, started an effort online to share knowledge, did a handful of episodes and I was so uncomfortable and it was hard to find a groove or feel like it was for me. I had a needed like an hour pump-you-up session with Cherise before I was even ready to get online. It just wasn't something that I really thought would be my thing and not something that I had seriously considered, doing in any big way. And I mean, I'm a spec writer and I had done a bunch of public speaking by the point this adventure started and that changed it a little bit. But yeah, unlikely podcasters are a really good way to describe it. I still feel like an unlikely podcaster, to be perfectly honest. Randy Wilburn: Yeah, a lot of what you're saying to me makes sense as you continue to peel back the onion and you, you shared 400 speaking engagements. I'm sure at some point you were probably mortified about getting up on stage and talking to a bunch of people. But over time, the more you do it, the better you get at it. I always tell people, especially with public speaking, it's just a muscle that you have to exercise. Like, I never think twice about speaking publicly, but there are a lot of people out there that would, like, just slip my wrist because I don't want to speak in front of two people, much less 500 people. And I couldn't even. I'm, like, on the opposite end of that. I'm happy to talk to a large group at any point in time, and I'll figure something out because it's just something that I really enjoy doing. But you kind of married what you were able to do from a public speaking perspective, and you brought it over into the podcasting world. And it's not so much how you. Well, how did you get chosen or how did they come to you for the detailed podcast? What is that original piece?
Cherise Lakeside: I think they were drinking one day. I'm joking, to be perfectly honest. I don't know what made them call me. I had been like I said, connected to Marc LePage and Demetrius online for a number of years, but I didn't know them well. Traded comments back and forth a little bit on Twitter, on Facebook, and with the Entre Architect group. And Mark sent me an email one day and said, would you be interested in doing a podcast? And I am not kidding. I sat here at my desk by myself, looking behind me like, who's he talking to? This is an email I'm reading. Like, who's he talking to? And I said, well, I'm always happy to talk about new opportunities. And I don't remember what I said, but, I know I was thinking, you probably don't have the right person, but I'll chat with you about it. I believe in not talking about an opportunity, even if it's not going to be for you. You should at least hear it out first. Yeah, so we had a meeting. Mark, are you sure you meant to call me? It's like, I don't even get it. And he probably had seen maybe one of my webinars or something at that point. I don't know. I need to ask him one of these days. What made you call me? Because I don't really know. So we talked about it a little bit. While I do get, like, sick to my stomach before every single speaking gig. Randy Wilburn: I do and just pause, I Want to mention that a lot of people don't realize that some of the most famous speakers have this issue. And I even get nervous before I go out and speak to a group. But that nervousness typically will subside very quickly once I get into my groove. And then the rest of it, I just. It doesn't bother me. But I think that's a normal thing. It's very rare for somebody to just hit the ground running and they don't think twice about it. Everybody gets with those proverbial butterflies or anything, because, I just want people to recognize that is a normal feeling. Even for those like Cherise, maybe myself, who have exercised that muscle of speaking on a regular basis, you still go through something in that process. Cherise Lakeside: It's, funny, though, like, you. Once I get through that first minute, maybe two, but usually it's only one. I forget. But I also believe that number one, if you don't get nervous, you probably shouldn't be doing it. Because I have seen speakers who are great speakers, but it's so practiced, it's so scripted that you lose that. You lose that passion. You lose that thing that connects you to your audience. Once I get going, all bets are off. I'm fine. Doesn't matter how big the room is or how small the room is. I actually get more nervous for smaller groups than I do for bigger ones. But it's that first getting through the butterflies, especially when it's. I get out of my comfort zone, because now I'm speaking at other organizations, conventions, and in front of groups that are not a room full of people where I know a lot of faces.
Randy Wilburn: Yeah.
Cherise Lakeside: A perfect example is just a few months ago when I spoke at the AIA Florida conference. So it's all of the architects in the state of Florida. And I had to walk into this big room full of a lot of people, and I literally did not know anybody. Well, there were a few people I was connected to, but I didn't know anybody. There was no comfort zone. There was no security blanket in that room. But it was. It turned out great. So, yeah, and I know that. And I don't speak about anything I can't speak comprehensively to. I don't talk about things I don't know anything about. That's really, important. Randy Wilburn: Yeah, that's because there's a lot of people that do go out and figure, oh, well, I'm a good communicator and a good speaker. I'll just riff on any subject that doesn't always end well. I don't think so. Cherise Lakeside: But, especially in my business, do not walk into a room full of architects or engineers and not know what you're talking about, because they will tell you that you don't know what you're talking about. Randy Wilburn: Well, I always ran into. Well, I didn't run into that, but I was always mindful of it in the years that I did training for Zweig Group because I knew that I was training a bunch of design professionals, a bunch of engineers and architects, of which I am not one. When I talked about leadership, I leaned into the concept of leadership which is something that we can all gravitate towards. Wasn't so much. So, yeah, of course, how can an architect be a leader? How can an engineer be a leader? In the same way that a businessman can be a leader or fill in the blank another profession can be. It can operate with a level of leadership. And I just think it's important for us to kind of be, as Shakespeare said, to thine own self be true. You have to be you. And I, typically when you are you, the good stuff will come out. Right? And I think that's kind of what we've been experiencing through your process on the detailed podcast and the few episodes that I've had. The. The joy to listen to witness you record the podcast at the AAA convention this past June in Washington, D.C. As of the time of recording this. First of all, you look like a natural. You sound like a natural, and you look super, super comfortable just having really cool conversations. And I'd be curious to know, when did you feel like you hit your groove with the detailed podcast? And what is it about that podcast that really resonates for you? Cherise Lakeside: I don't know if I've hit my curve yet. I mean, after a hundred episodes, I always think things can be better.
Randy Wilburn: Yeah.
Cherise Lakeside: I will never be a hundred percent satisfied with anything that I do. I'm always looking for ways to improve. I know that I have morphed all kinds of things in this podcast from day one, as opposed to what I do now. For me, what gets me up in the morning, so to speak, over this podcast is the people. At the end of the day, I'm a people person, and I love connecting with people and kind of not just pulling out the great information about the project, but making them comfortable enough to relax and really share the good stuff. It was an early conversation I had because this is Arkat's podcast, it's not my podcast. And after Gable asked me to do the podcast, they said, okay, well, we're good with you. Now we have to get RCAT has final approval and we had a meeting with [inaudible] and I'm a pretty matter-of-fact person. I don't at this point. you learn a lot of things over the years. I maybe wasn't always this person, but I'm really in a phase of my life where what you see is what you get. I'm a good person and I will do anything for my friends. And if you don't like me, somebody else out there you can like and I'm okay with that. But I'm going to give it to you straight and I'm going to be honest. Because if we're going to work together or if we're going to be friends or whatever it is. Not that I'm not trying to improve every day, but this is who I am and that's how I approach this. I pretty clearly told RKAT that this is who I am. if we're going to do this, I really need to just do me. If you're looking for a formal Barbara Walters interviewer, it's just not gonna fly with me. I wanna dig into you. You're a person, and I wanna hear about what motivated you to do this and how you solved this problem. And they were like, yep, sounds good to us. I was like, damn, oh God, I have to do this. And so the initial deal was, let's do 10 episodes and see if any of us wanna keep going. And so that's what we did. And I was fortunate that a few of my early guests because this is a brand new thing, I had to go out mining for gas, which I don't have to do very often anymore, which is, I think, a beautiful thing. I picked a few people I knew well, who I knew were really smart, and really good at what they do. I was already connected to them, already friends with them, which I knew would make me feel more comfortable getting my feet wet. It was easier in the beginning because we only did audio so I could hide behind that a little bit. I didn't have to worry about how I looked on the screen or, whether I did something, whatever. The video came later. I still struggle with that sometimes, but it's like, I'm not having a cute day, I don't want to do this. But it went really well. And I started off with this stock list of questions I'm going to ask every. And I told Arkad also, I said what I'd really. Because they're like, okay, what do we want this podcast to be? And I said, what I'd really like. Here's my two cents. What I'd like to do is have it be talking about your great project through the lens of what can we teach our listeners in the process. I mean, teaching is important to me. How can we make the underlying goal of this podcast my goal? I tell every guest two things before I turn on the mic. One is pretend like we're at happy hour having a good glass of whiskey and talking about your project. And that's all that's going on here. It's just you and me, nothing else. And the other thing I tell them is, don't be afraid to get technical and teach me
something. I want somebody to get up, from listening to the podcast, run to their desk, and change something they're doing based on something that you said. So don't be afraid to go into details and explain how you got there. Not just that you got there, but how you got there. And that's pretty much been the podcast ever since. Is. Let's get into the details. And every guest is different, but for me, it's the guests. It's connecting with this new human being and learning a little something about them and having them share their most. Not all my guests are architects. Most of them are, but not all of them. Architects are inherently also very artistic. Like, I quit asking. I was really surprised at the number of architects that did something very creative. Lots of musicians or artists, or I built furniture or just traveled all over the world. And so I try to find out something about them, make them feel comfortable, and then get them to tell me all the good stuff about their project. And I love, for me, the challenge is, what can I make you feel comfortable enough to get you to share with me? I want to take it to the next level. Not just, oh, tell me about the structural framing system. okay, well, there might be another way to talk about that structural framing system that might be a little more entertaining. But I love it. A lot of architects are rather introverted as well, so it takes some work to pull that out. And for me, it's like, my win is that I get you out of your shell to share your passion for what you do for a living and what you create. And so that's where I get my kicks from doing this podcast, seeing how much I can get somebody to just relax and really share what they're doing. Randy Wilburn: Yeah, well, you've certainly done a good job of it and I will encourage our listeners to check out the detailed podcast just as well. First of all, some of our listeners will benefit from listening to your podcast. Most of our, if not all of our listeners should and would benefit from listening to the detailed podcast and listening to some of Cherise's expertise, as well as her ability to maneuver a conversation and have a really good, engaging, and open conversation with the audience and more importantly with the guest of the episode. But so I will certainly we'll put a link in the show notes to the detailed podcast for folks to check out. One of the questions that I have for you is whether you have tried out podcasting before. Did you realize that podcasting has had the long tail effect that it does have in terms of, you know, you create something today and that two years from now, three years from now, people will still be listening to that and listening to your conversations as you go back and forth with somebody? Did you recognize the power of podcasting from that perspective or what was it about podcasting that resonated with you above and beyond the normal? You getting to meet some really cool people, or you getting to just practice and continue to hone that communication muscle that you have. What was it about podcasting that really stuck with you?
Cherise Lakeside: For me, originally, when I agreed to do it, it was just a new adventure. The first effort, there were two of us and we both had really busy lives and it was just hard to make it happen. Different time zones, all of it, it just didn't quite work out. But a new adventure and I like to try new things. I don't like to get bored. And so, originally that's why I said yes. And it was also only 10 episodes, so if it totally tanked, there wasn't going to be too much blood, sweat, and tears going into it. It soon morphed into something. It very quickly morphed into something else with me because I remember I went to this particular conference geared specifically towards spec writers and it went to this con. We were really early in the game, less than 20 episodes, and easily had a large number of connections on LinkedIn. It's not Justin Bieber's level of connections, but I'm not Justin Bieber. And so I started sharing the podcast right away. It was the first day of the conference. So, the very first event was the welcome reception. We all did the welcome reception. And I walk in and I'm looking around for anybody I know because normally I can go to a conference and find people pretty quickly. Hadn't spotted anybody I knew yet. And, a stranger walked up to me and said, you host that podcast. And I was going, literally, Randy, I was going, what in the hell just happened? We just started this thing. There was no video at the time. I mean, my little profile picture was on the landing page. And I thought, wow. And there were like three people at that conference that said something to me about the podcast. And we were just getting started. We probably weren't. We may not have even been over 10 episodes yet. And that was a little bit of a wake-up call. Number one, wow, this can have a lot of reach even outside of my immediate circles. And number two, all the work I did to build up my social media presence makes a difference. Yeah, I think that really contributed to helping us take off and getting a following. Randy Wilburn: And you guys have really developed a following over the time that the podcast has been out. Cherise Lakeside: Have it open on my screen, because I thought you might ask me that. So nine days ago, I was all excited. I think you saw my post on LinkedIn. We hit 800,000 downloads and 180,000 unique listeners in 105 different countries so that was nine days ago. Today it's 840,000 downloads and 185,000 unique M listeners, and we're about a little under three years in. I think it's February, will be our third anniversary. So a little over two and a half years, which blows my mind. I don't know how architecture podcasts do. I've been told that these numbers are remarkable. I have a hard time owning that. I'm like, who is listening to me talk? I don't know what's wrong with you people, but it's just taken off, it's exploded. So, now I'm on a mission. Like, I want to have Justin Bieber-level podcast listeners, which I'll never have, but, yeah, you have to have something to work for. But it's done really well and I have received all kinds of great feedback on it. I think the key here, in my opinion, is authenticity, because there
are a lot of architecture podcasts out there. I might have a tad bit of a sassy sense of humor on occasion, which might not hurt, but we have real conversations about real challenges we deal with every day on projects. And I have had a number of guests say, wow, that was a really great question. I think my lens of working in multiple disciplines, I send them questions, but I custom write the scripts now, which I didn't do in the beginning. And I think that has been a game changer because I really, I Trolled you on the Internet, beyond the stuff you sent me about your project. And I find little things, but then they say something. I call them my rabbit holes. So my guest answers my question, and they say something that my brain goes, well, wait a minute, full stop. I need to hear more about that. So we're going to go. And I warn them that I'm going to do that. I don't want them to be surprised. It's prerecorded, so they can say, I don't have the stats there to answer this, or I, don't feel comfortable answering it, or whatever. I think the unique lens that I have paired with, we just have real conversations. It's comfortable, it's relaxed. I really do feel like minus a cocktail, you're sitting just talking to a new, interesting person you met. And I love smart people, too. I've got to think for smart people, and I think that resonates with people. It's not this stuffy kind of talk about the project. It's not a commercial for their project. I mean, it is in the long run because we get to hear these cool things about this project, but it's more about sharing the passion and real conversations in that and real challenges and what was hard. I want to know what was hard and how you fixed it, because that's where we all learn. Randy Wilburn: Well, I think that I love hearing this story, and it's very encouraging. The reality is that the top 1% of podcasts get roughly 30,000 downloads a month, thereabouts. So you can kind of do the math from there. But so you guys are up in that echelon of podcasts, and I think a lot of it probably speaks to the fact that you do focus on a niche topic and a niche subject. And so there is that. Right? And there it's probably found that a lot of people are very interested in. In a lot of the topical things that you come up with on the podcast. And for them, it's like, oh, this is. I'm going to class with Cherise. Every time I listen to this podcast episode, I either learn something new or she unearthed something that I was thinking about but wasn't quite sure about. But now that she shared it and has kind of delivered it out in public, I can lean into that now and work on that specific area of my project. So I see it as having a tremendous impact on design professionals, especially those who work and talk about the things that you talk about on your podcast. Cherise Lakeside: Well, I hope so. I mean, I have people now reaching out to me and saying, what do we have to do to be on the podcast? One thing I love about hosting this for a recap, besides them just letting me decide whether something is a fit and stays within kind of the realm that we want this podcast to be about. And there's nothing better in work or in life than being around a bunch of. Both Gable and Arkat are the most
supportive, empowering partners in this effort. And they celebrate what you do. Right. They're really gentle about the things that they may want you to change. And we all work together. We all have the same goal. And it's such a. It's just like the dream work environment to do something that you already love doing, but then do it with a bunch of partners who are amazing humans, who have the same kind of heart that you do and the same kind of passion that you do. How could you lose? I mean, really.
Randy Wilburn: Yeah.
Cherise Lakeside: This is fun.
Randy Wilburn: No, that's awesome. I love hearing that because I think people are out there thinking about why would they want to do a podcast. Cherise explains a number of the reasons why you would want to do a podcast. If you were talking and I don't know if you've had a conversation with a design firm that has said, hey, we really love what you're doing, but I don't think we could pull off a podcast like you. What advice do you typically provide or have you shared in the past with others that are like, well, we can't quite be like Cherise, so we don't know that it's worth it for us to even go down the road of trying and doing a podcast? Cherise Lakeside: It's funny that you say that because I've had that conversation with a number of people that have, specifically people that know me or connected to me in some way reached out and say, kind of thinking about doing this, but looks like a lot of work and would you mind sharing? So I've given that advice and I'm going to qualify this. This is just my advice. Different situation. But for me, I have a day job, a very demanding day job. One of my concerns was I only have so much bandwidth to do an effort like this because we put out an episode once a week. There are a couple of two, breaks in the year, but we're putting out the episodes from Green Builder AIA during those times, and during those breaks, I'm still recording. We're just not putting out any episodes. It's a full hour-plus episode every week. Among the other 5 million things I have going on in my life. And so, number one, I start with, what's the value of having a podcast? And the first thing I say is, if you're not going to take this seriously, don't even start. This has to be something you're committed to doing, and you have to be patient enough to give it time to spread and grow. And that comes with putting out consistent content that people want to hear, constantly improving. So first, be committed. Second, and this is not a shameless plug for Gable Media, but it kind of is, because one of the things that makes this so enjoyable for me to do is, is that Gable Media does all the hard stuff. So my second piece of advice is, there are people out there you can pay to do all the hard stuff. I'm not saying I don't do any work. I don't just do the recordings. I do write all the scripts and I coordinate with the guests. But once I'm done, Gable takes
it over and they do all of the production. I don't have to note a darn thing about tech. They told me what microphone I needed and then sent it to me. For me, that's been a game changer. So if it was a firm looking to do it, if you don't have people in-house qualified to do that, you might want to consider hiring somebody qualified to help you get those pieces done. I do other things. I share it all over social media, but I get to do all the parts I enjoy and let somebody else do the parts. I have no desire to even learn. So my second piece of advice is what is your capacity to provide consistent content? You have a great marketing department, somebody with some background in this, maybe you can put it out, but you can't. I know what this business is like. I've had 80-hour weeks before. If you don't put out consistent content, there are a thousand other things out there for people to listen to. And I mean, I'm sorry, whether you're binge-watching TV shows or binge-listening to a podcast, if you stray off somewhere else, there's a good chance you might not make it back. And so that's my next piece of advice to look at what you really have the bandwidth to do and be willing to hire somebody to help you do it. Yeah, for me, that's a game-changer. I would not be doing this if it wasn't for the fact that I can just do the part that really gives me joy.
Randy Wilburn: We understand.
Cherise Lakeside: And so being efficient and how you do it instead of taking on something, understanding how to do it again. The things I didn't understand, Gable explained to me. So I didn't have to go do a ton of homework, but I didn't go looking for this. But I have met people who are looking for it. And so I share my experience, I share the reach. I mean, I gave you the numbers, but I can't tell you how many amazing kind comments I get from people online. It's gone on long enough now, being over a hundred episodes. What are we at? 110. Something around that. I have people reaching out to me and saying, I'd really love to be on your podcast. I have probably a number of PR companies for architects that have found me one way or another, reaching out and saying, I've got this client. Would you like to interview them? The bigger the numbers, the more interested the guests are. And so I am getting standing invitations to dinner and a project tour in more cities than I can count. Like, if you're in town, Cherise, just call me up. I'll take you around the building and show it to you personally. Besides this being fun to do and having more and more connections every day in the industry all over the world that I feel like I know personally as a result of every episode, it's a game changer for me. And I started my own little crazy personal branding thing a number of years ago. I don't know. I feel like I leveled up after doing this. I don't know how exactly to explain it, but I regularly go to conferences now. I know a lot of people at my conference, but I can't go five feet without somebody stopping me and wanting to. I was complaining a little bit. Like, please, could I just go to the restroom? I'll be right back, I promise. But, strangers come up. I just wanted to meet you. I listened to your podcast. It
has a reach. And I think that for some people, we're making a difference in sharing these lessons learned and sharing this journey that's different for every project and different for every firm and every project manager. So that's. I share the successes I've seen and how I think that has made a difference both for me personally and for our cat. It's their podcast. I mean, we even have swag bags now. It's a detailed podcast. And lip gloss or not lip gloss. Lip chapstick. Yeah, I think it's. I have about 30 on my desk. I kept stealing them every time I walked by. My firm is very Supportive. And they understand the value of having. I'm sure you cited RDH building science in your host and the reach that has gone further. Every guest hears that. What's RDH? Building science. I don't know whether my firm has received any new clients from this, but I know people have mentioned to people from my firm. Wait, Cherise works at your firm? Randy Wilburn: Brand awareness. It's just that alone, in and of itself, as much as you've said it. So have you had, your firm on the podcast?
Cherise Lakeside: I have.
Randy Wilburn: Okay.
Cherise Lakeside: So a couple of times, actually.
Randy Wilburn: Okay, There you go.
Cherise Lakeside: Yeah.
Randy Wilburn: Yeah, that helps.
Cherise Lakeside: Hello. I'm sorry. I work for the best building science firm in the nation in no abs. I work with some of the smartest people I've ever worked with. They kind of scare me sometimes. It's like, oh, this is a whole different level of smart. You guys are scary. Yeah. So I have had them on a couple of times. They're probably due for a new one too.
Randy Wilburn: Yeah, I love that.
Cherise Lakeside: But, yeah. And they're really supportive of me being involved in this effort. They're firm believers in. We want our people to be happy. And if you're doing your job, which my job is always done before anything, they understand that sometimes there are things outside of the 9 to 5 that also give you joy. It's just an added benefit if it's an industry thing.
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