but the players are going somewhere else. So the viability of the regulated market is in question because there was not a proper process. Operators feel insecure, that there’s the risk of liability if there are unclear license conditions, for example. And they may feel compelled to have a court review of these license conditions. So litigation is the other consequence, which, personally, I think is a shame. My view is that litigation should only be a last resort. Usually as an industry lawyer, you want to be a mediator and to contribute to a good regulatory situation. So I hope we can, in the dialogue with a new regulator, amend these issues, but it’s certainly the result of a lack of communication between regulated and the regulator. JK: The economics of a regulatory office don’t often occur to people but it’s certainly a key issue for a regulator. Olena, I was struck by something you said, when we were preparing for this panel? In Ireland the regulator is expected to be self-sustaining in three years. Is it a simlar situation in Ukraine? Is there a real pressure to have enough money and resources? And do you have to generate that from fees or fines? OV: Unfortunately, because of the war, we don’t have enough resources for doing our job. But we’re trying to find some. Like Brigitte said, we are having some advisors, we can’t hire professionals, but we have advisors, and we are trying to help our staff to learn more information about international gambling. We are of course under pressure from the our policymakers, because they had some expectations of legalization, that the illegal market will disappear. But as we all understand the illegal market exists in Ukraine and creates big problems for the legal market. So we have a lot of challenges and unfortunately this impacts the entire country and the gambling industry. JK: Karen, you spoke earlier about the value of GLI in that situation as a service provider. Where do you stand in that relationship between the regulator and the industry, and what value do you bring to the equation? KS-H: I think our position is unique, impartial, completely impartial. So the advice that we can provide is not directed to benefit suppliers or operators, we don’t have an interest in that. And we are also impartial with the regulator so I think that’s the value, that not only the regulator’s, the industry sees in our participation. But I wanted to talk a little bit about the budget, not about hiring GLI, of course, but about the budget that the regulatory entity has to have. We do talk about how sustainable the regulatory entity has to be at some point, but in most countries regulatory entities don’t even have their own funds. They depend on the funds from central government, even on the money from licenses goes through central government. Then it’s very hard to allocate budget but for things like professionalization and expertise. It’s hard for them because they have no budget for training, professionalization. And that’s a very big limitation for them. JK: To be cynical for a minute, that perhaps the push to impose larger fines helps with the funding of the regulator? BS: Of course, we have to live in the real world but if that’s the case, we all need to stand on the same side, and absolutely talk against it. Because there can be no way for a regulator to have a chance of ever being respected. So they’re making it impossible to create a good environment and a dialogue with industry, it’s absolutely impossible in that situation. So it’s not fair to the regulatory regime, it’s not fair to the whole model. Because ultimately, what we all do is based on trust, right? We’ve talked about knowledge, but very often its a mix of knowledge and trust. So if you can’t trust the regulator, and you can’t trust this government and the state, then nothing goes right. JK: If you have regulation that is perceived to be unfair, or maybe uncertain, and there is a lack of certainty around how the regulator will interpret the rules, Matthias, do you then see some flight of business from the market? MS: Absolutely. In Germany, sports betting licensing started in 2020, then we had mid 2021, online slots licensing. And of course, with that came a set of regulations. As a licensed operator, it’s natural that you have to obey certain rules. So the regulated market will, by definition, be a lot more onerous for the operators. But you can still do things wrong when it comes to the product. When, for example, it comes to betting regulation, when you prohibit the things that players like to see, it’s like if you go into a supermarket, and 70% of the products you like have disappeared, then you won’t go to that supermarket anymore. So that is in part what has happened. What we need to have is an ongoing consultation process or review, which I know is going to happen in Germany. And we have also to have an honest discussion about
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