happened, given how experienced Clinton was and how unexperienced Trump was. That’s a terrible failure that would normally result in a post-election purge of all those people involved. But I think none of that is that surprising or that interesting. What is interesting is how the security state has joined the fight. And how people who would call themselves liberals or neo-liberals now joining into bed and celebrating the FBI and CIA. And even a fair chunk of U.S. mainstream media are palling up to that project. I think that is quite worrying. Q: In America, there’s this belief that the one who publishes the leaks is a good guy, but the one who leaks the information to the publisher is not just somebody who should be punished, but is a bad guy. But is that a more complicated ethical question than people allow it to be? Julian Assange: In my view, what allows us as individuals as a civilization to not do stupid things and to do the humane thing or the intelligent thing is that
have the security services, didn’t have the banks, etc. I guess he had the coal industries, but they’re so small as to be just not a factor. So, he gets into government. And then of course there’s been a kind of push and shove, where the president, through his ability to hire and fire, has been showing his power. But the intelligence agencies and Saudi Arabia and the other serious players in the United States and out have also been demonstrating their power. And so you see a give and take between the White House and those other players. And so if you look at his shift in some security policy – how long did that take? They kept beating him up, and it took about 70 days. So you have an untrained, undisciplined president – it takes about 70 days for the security sector to whip them into position. It’s not completely there... I think Trump is hard to keep him in a box, even if you get him in a box for a while. So just speaking as a journalist, it’s a fascinating thing to see play out.
With Obama and other presidencies, usually that has already played out in the Senate. In their career before they become a president, they’ve gotten into position, and most of – they’re not straying too much from what the “politically correct” position is. Whereas Trump was all over the place as soon as he got into office and now he’s being shoved and pushed into line. Q: Are these sorts of accusations the modern political playbook? That the government opposition – whether led by Democrats or led by Republicans, or perhaps both – attack the president with a special prosecutor and allegations of wrongdoing that dog him until he turns over? Julian Assange: I think from the Democratic perspective, yeah, they’re trying a standard playbook of trying to harass the administration any way they can that they think will lead to its downfall... It also distracts from an epic loss by the existing Democratic leadership. That really shouldn’t have
50 | June 2017
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