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THE ALLEYNIAN 709
OPINION, INTERVIEWS & FEATURES
Being too scared to change is not a strong enough reason to avoid change “
Sito Udoaka : So Seymour, why defund the police?
operating in, to use politically incorrect terms, a crime-ridden area. If you have such a small number of police surrounded by what they may perceive as a large number of potential criminals, is this not precisely what creates this culture of overaction? Surely if you defund the police that would result in lower police numbers and more insecurity. SH : Well I see where you’re coming from, but the way to solve that is to tackle the root cause: poverty. If disaffected people feel like there is a solution other than crime, crime levels will be reduced and we will see fewer people re-offending. SU : We’ll get into the whole ACAB (All Cops Are Bastards) stuff later, but drawing from that, do you believe that the overwhelming majority of the police are not only racist, but also fail to take the necessary action to be anti-racist, even if they are not overtly racist? SH : I wouldn’t say the overwhelming majority, but there are those who are racist. When it comes to those who are not racist, if they don’t take the steps to become actively anti- racist, they will remain part of the wider problem. SU : If you have a police department with a lot of racist officers, how is defunding the police going to reduce the amount of racism? Surely they will still be racist, but just defunded, which would likely create resentment. SH : By defunding them and expecting them to do less, you reduce contact with disadvantaged people whom they would otherwise antagonise. In turn you decrease the chances of them making mistakes, and instead you fix crime through positive action. SU : Can you give me an example of police practice in which contemporary American police have instigated problems? SH : One example comes from the recent Black Lives Matter protests, which started off peacefully. However, when the police came and acted tough under the auspices of calming down the peaceful protest, they escalated the situation. Even if it was inadvertent, their presence alone antagonised people, leading to violence. An example showing that there is a direct correlation between police antagonism and crime levels can
Seymour Hine : I think that in America – but also in the UK – the police are expected not only to track down criminals, enforcing the law when it’s being broken, but also to prevent people from breaking the law, although they are neither trained nor equipped to do this. Instead of funding the police and expecting them to accomplish these difficult tasks, which they already struggle to manage, we propose the redirection of funding towards education, housing, social services and all the things that benefit the community and help to alleviate poverty. SU : I feel that it is important to create a distinction between defunding and abolishing the police. To clarify: are you advocating the defunding of certain police activities? SH : I think we still need the police to provide some sort of law enforcement, to catch criminals and to ensure they don’t damage people or property. However, as a society we should stop looking at them as a fix-all solution. SU : Tell me how you view the problems of policing in the USA. What is your opinion on the solutions that will fix these problems? SH : The police are on the streets. They have been granted a great deal of power and, in my view, they often abuse that power in order to prevent the crime which they believe (correctly or not) is going to take place. A lot of cops are influenced by racism and misogyny, and this in turn affects the way they pick people out. By giving them power and expecting them to prevent crime, you’re giving them the basis to abuse it, so they can unfairly stop and search minorities or people whom they believe – and they may not do it consciously – are more likely to commit certain crimes. A way to improve this is for the police to respond to actual crime, leaving crime prevention to better-resourced and more effective organisations and initiatives. SU : But don’t you feel that a lot of the instances where we see police being overactive or using excessive force are a result of them perceiving themselves to be in a position of insecurity? For example, let’s say you have a small group of police
be seen in New York, where a policy reducing police presence for petty crimes resulted in a decrease in crime levels, and therefore antagonism also decreased. SU : Let’s get into the statement All Cops Are Bastards. Do you agree with this sentiment? SH : It’s not as black and white as that. Many police officers are doing their best to do good, and to change the force from within. There are racist and problematic members within police departments in many countries. When you see police organisations protecting themselves, such as striking when their members are suspended (something not permitted in the UK), the police are cast in a bad light. When this kind of behaviour is seen as a prominent part of police culture, the viewpoint that all police are bad comes to the fore. SU : Let’s say you were in charge of the publicity wing of BLM. Would you continue using the slogan ACAB? SH : It’s a powerful slogan which aims to get the debate going, whether or not you agree with it. I think it’s crucial, so I wouldn’t scrap it, at least until we see police departments themselves taking action to fight racism within their own ranks. SU : But do you not see the statement as adhering to the kind of sensationalism that characterises the particular brand of politics we have today? The statement All Cops Are Bastards does not provide much nuance. I understand the thought-provoking element, but I fail to understand why BLM would want to reduce itself to emotion-driven, hyperbolic demagoguery. Isn’t the point of movements to progress from exactly that? Additionally, it has failed to bring about the very
goal it claims to want to achieve: debate. George Floyd has been dead for five months [as of the time of recording] and nothing yet has changed. Instead of debate there is endless furore, fuelled by insubstantial and emotional statements like ACAB. SH : It definitely needs to be used cautiously and not thrown around, whilst also being backed up with reason and factual evidence, which I think it currently is. SU : Why can’t we just say that the police system is f***ed, rather than focusing on the police officers that uphold it? SH : There could be alternatives. The slogan is quite historical, and maybe it does need changing. But the overall message, which says that the police force and a lot of the police officers are flawed and wrong, and that this is entrenched in the system, should remain.
SU : Do you have a final statement you wish to make?
SH : The last thing I would like to point out is that there may be other solutions but when you have the George Floyd murder, and all the other murders that have gone unprosecuted or at least have not been fairly dealt with, being too scared to change is not a strong enough reason to avoid change, in my view. You do need a movement and you do need change. BLM and defunding the police is just one solution that may work, and a lot of people would agree it is better than the current system, even if it is not flawless in and of itself.
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