TZL 1531

WWW.ZWEIGGROUP.COM

Apri l

2024,

Issue

1531

TRENDLINES

Equity value/profit

3.5 3.6 3.7 3.8 3.9 4

The 2024 Valuation Report highlights strong AEC industry performance and essential metrics for firm leaders. Key valuation insights

2020 2021 2022 2023 2024

FIRM INDEX AECOM......................................................................... 6 Garver.............................................................................4 Jacobs ........................................................................... 6 Maxwell-Reddick................................................ 10 Pape-Dawson Engineers, LLC.................. 10 Walter P Moore......................................................8 Ware Malcomb ........................................................2 MORE ARTICLES n BRENT SCHNIERS: Coping with the death of a colleague Page 3 n MARK ZWEIG: Everyone has to get stuff done Page 5 n RACHEL WILDE: Space for failure Page 8 n STJEPAN MIKULIĆ: Approach change at the individual level Page 10 According to Zweig Group’s 2024 Valuation Report of AEC Firms , equity value/profit metric continues to stand firm at 3.91, mirroring the robust performance of the preceding year. Simultaneously, the equity value/book value ratio has seen an uptick to 1.80. Many firms held excess cash on their balance sheets as PPP and ERC money flowed into organizations during 2020 and 2021. These funds are finally getting worked through as growth in the industry has impacted the working capital requirements and capital investments of these firms.

T he recent release of the 2024 Valuation Report of AEC Firms marks more than three decades of Zweig Group’s commitment to providing the AEC industry with comprehensive valuation data and analysis. Zweig Group’s 2024 Z-Values indicate strong financial performance and growing confidence in the stability of the AEC industry as a whole. Many of our metrics have seen increases in the last year and will be important measures for firm leaders to track as internal stock valuations and negotiated external transactions increasingly come into focus. This industry has an aging owner issue, with nearly 80 percent of firm owners looking to transition in the next decade. Despite global economic challenges, our industry has shown remarkable strength and adaptability. Here are some key takeaways from the report: ■ This year’s report underscores a significant upward trend in firm values, reflecting the industry’s resilience and growth. The median firm profiled in the survey has 38 full-time equivalents (FTE), five owners, and exhibits a book value of $2.4 million. The data further shows a net service revenue (NSR) of $6.3 million, pre-bonus profit of $910,000, EBITDA of $965,000, and a solid backlog of $7.4 million. ■ The 2024 report presents compelling insights, notably the value per employee metric which has climbed to $96,661 from $89,809 in the previous year, highlighting a dynamic market for talent and the intrinsic value of human capital within the industry. Concurrently, the value/NSR ratio has appreciated to 0.64, indicating a rise in profitability for each dollar of service revenue as well as the close connection between revenue growth and firm valuation. ■ Conversely, the value/backlog ratio has registered a marginal dip to 0.65 from 0.73 in 2023. This could be attributed to an increase in the firm’s backlog volume over the last couple of years as many firms held more than 12 months of backlog in 2022 and 2023. Despite a slight dip in the metric, backlog is still a primary driver of valuation as it indicates the stability of the firm’s future earnings. ■ Furthermore, the value/EBITDA ratio surged to 4.23 in 2024, ascending from 4.04 the year prior. The industry continues to see

Will Swearingen

See WILL SWEARINGEN, page 2

THE VOICE OF REASON FOR THE AEC INDUSTRY

ON THE MOVE WARE MALCOMB ANNOUNCES PROMOTION OF AKANKSHA SINGH TO STUDIO MANAGER, SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY IN PLEASANTON, CA Ware Malcomb, an award-winning international design firm, announced Akanksha Singh has been promoted to Studio Manager, Science & Technology in the firm’s Pleasanton, California office. In this role, she will help lead the growth and management of the office’s S&T Studio. “Akanksha plays a key role in staff training and collaborating with our firm’s Science & Technology leaders,” said Luciana Arim, practice leader and director, Science & Technology, Ware Malcomb. “She has demonstrated excellence in managing projects, establishing best practices, and we look forward to her continued contributions to the firm.” Singh’s background includes 20 years of experience managing science and technology sector projects for major

clients. She first joined Ware Malcomb’s Advanced Manufacturing group in 2017, contributing to various technical projects for the firm. After a brief hiatus in 2021, she returned to the Pleasanton office as senior laboratory planner for the newly formed S&T practice group prior to her latest promotion to studio manager. She earned her bachelor’s degree in architecture from Mumbai University and master’s degree in architecture from University of Washington in Seattle. A sustainability advocate, Singh was named to the board of the Northern California Chapter of the International Institute for Sustainable Laboratories, and serves as its communications co-chair. Ware Malcomb is an industry leader with decades of science and technology experience. S&T serves as one of the firm’s practice areas supporting dedicated market-specific capabilities across the Americas.

Interested in learning more

about the projects and ideas driving the AEC industry forward? Learn more with Civil+Structural Engineer Media.

WILL SWEARINGEN, from page 1

consolidation at record levels with significant demand from both financially backed and traditional strategic buyers. This phenomenon has prompted many owners to consider their internal calculations and has also pushed up pricing on internal transfers. We expect 2024 to continue to be a strong year for M&A activity in the AEC industry. ■ The equity value/profit metric continues to stand firm at 3.91, mirroring the robust performance of the preceding year. Simultaneously, the equity value/book value ratio has seen an uptick to 1.80. Many firms held excess cash on their balance sheets as PPP and ERC money flowed into organizations during 2020 and 2021. These funds are finally getting worked through as growth in the industry has impacted the working capital requirements and capital investments of these firms. ■ The premium for control level transactions versus minority level remains significant, reinforcing the fact that firms can access higher returns on their investments via the external market. As the industry experiences a surge in ownership transition activities, the demand for independent, third-party appraisals has also intensified, mirroring the sector’s growth and the need for precise fair market value calculations. Zweig Group’s Valuation Report of AEC Firms remains the industry’s go-to resource for benchmarking and understanding firm value. The comprehensive data and analysis provide invaluable insights for firms preparing for transitions, seeking to benchmark their performance, or aiming to understand their position within the industry landscape. Will Swearingen is vice president and director of research and advisory services at Zweig Group. He can be reached at wswearingen@zweiggroup.com.

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THE ZWEIG LETTER APRIL 1, 2024, ISSUE 1531

OPINION

A beloved colleague, Scott Forbes was a respected part of Garver’s Transportation Team and a mentor to many – both inside Garver and throughout the AEC industry.

Though there’s no roadmap for navigating grief, there are steps leaders can take to manage their own emotions and guide their organization through a tough time. Coping with the death of a colleague

C an you ever really be prepared for the sudden death of a team member? The shock and disbelief that accompanies this kind of loss is surreal. No amount of company literature or leadership training can equip managers with the effective skills needed for handling this challenge. In many cases, leaders find themselves in the difficult position of trying to support grieving employees while dealing with their own grief and managing the logistics of change.

Brent Schniers

Our firm recently experienced the unexpected loss of a beloved colleague, Scott Forbes, who was a respected part of our Transportation Team and a mentor to many – both inside Garver and throughout the AEC industry. His death has caused me to pause and reflect on his life, and my own, and on how best to steer a team through a time of individual and collective sorrow. And though there’s no precise roadmap for navigating grief, I’ve learned that there are some guide signs along the way – steps leaders can take to both manage their own emotions and help navigate their organization through a tough time:

■ Remember that people grieve – and handle stress – differently. As my family can attest, I take solace in physical work, so you’ll find me outside doing that. ■ Be authentic with your team and communicate your own feelings. Acknowledge that the employee’s death has an impact on you personally. As leaders, we need to be the calm in the storm, but we also need to remember that it’s OK to be vulnerable and that vulnerability is its own kind of strength.

See BRENT SCHNIERS, page 4

THE ZWEIG LETTER APRIL 1, 2024, ISSUE 1531

■ Find a way to honor your co-worker and keep their memory alive. Scott’s family established the Scott Forbes Scholarship to support an organization he was passionate about, the Greater Dallas/Fort Worth Chapter of Women in Transportation Society. To donate to the Scott Forbes Scholarship fund, contact the Greater Dallas/Fort Worth Chapter of Women in Transportation Society at info@ wtsgreaterdfw.com. Work can be a welcome distraction when you’re grieving, but when the person you’ve lost is a co-worker, it can serve as a painful reminder. Scott was a daily presence in our Frisco office, and I know our people there miss being able to pop in to chat with him or seek his advice. But the workplace can also provide a supportive community when we are grieving a common loss, especially if that workplace already has a culture of connectedness and supportive leadership, which Garver does. Brent Schniers is director of transportation for Garver. Connect with him on LinkedIn .

BRENT SCHNIERS, from page 3

■ Communicate information with empathy and clarity to decrease the possibility of rumors or misinformation, build trust, and provide a sense of order going forward. ■ Set and share the expectation that your team will get through this loss over time and offer a positive vision of the future. “Scott’s death has caused me to pause and reflect on his life, and my own, and on how best to steer a team through a time of individual and collective sorrow.”

Extend grace. Offer flexible and reasonable accommodations as people find their new normal.

■

■ Encourage your employees to take care of themselves, physically and mentally, and to avail themselves of company resources, like counseling and wellness programs. ■ Show up. Even a small gesture – offering a word of kindness, listening, checking in on those who were close to the co-worker – can go a long way.

■ Connect with the family of the person who passed away.

THE ZWEIG LETTER APRIL 1, 2024, ISSUE 1531

FROM THE FOUNDER

Everyone has to get stuff done

M y editorial writing for The Zweig Letter has always reflected my own experience, much of it current. I usually don’t write about what someone else has experienced or written about. I think many writers share my approach to it, and hopefully it has kept my work relevant and topical over the years. We all need new challenges, variety in our daily routines, and to see tangible results from our efforts to be fulfilled.

Mark Zweig

My own experience in the last seven weeks or so has been one of high productivity, but not in all of the “jobs” I have (my teaching, my board service, and the companies I have ownership in or am most involved with). I am back to working on houses, using my physical labor every day. And I have to admit, if not for the guilt about how well I am doing my other work these last few weeks, it has been incredibly gratifying. Nineteen years ago, I started a business – Mark Zweig, Inc., a design-build contracting and development company. We started out by doing total gut-to-the-studs renovations of 80- to 120-year-old houses we owned in “walk to everything” locations. Ten years later, we had an unlimited license to build any commercial or residential project; 60-plus houses, apartments, and condos as well as 44,000

square feet of commercial space in a rental portfolio, and a business that got on the Inc. 5,000 fastest- growing privately-held company list as well as named “Developers of the Year” by our local chamber of commerce. In any case, sometime around 2018, I and my best friend (who worked in the business and became my wife in 2019) decided we were sick of it. The risk/ reward ratio got completely out of control. We had way too much overhead and debt in the business, and in 2018 had a bunch of big projects under construction with nothing to sell all year. Our working capital got almost completely drained and it wasn’t fun any longer. Our construction crews and our subs

See MARK ZWEIG, page 6

THE ZWEIG LETTER APRIL 1, 2024, ISSUE 1531

BUSINESS NEWS AECOM JOINT VENTURE APPOINTED BY AUSTRALIA’S SUNWATER AS ENGINEERING AND PROFESSIONAL SERVICES PARTNER AECOM, the world’s trusted infrastructure consulting firm, announced that Sunwater has appointed an AECOM joint venture as Engineering and Professional Services Partner for the Queensland, Australia bulk water service provider. Sunwater’s dams and pipeline delivers around 40 percent of the water used commercially in Queensland – more than 1.3 million megaliters a year. As part of the Prosperity joint venture with Jacobs, AECOM will support Sunwater in achieving strategic goals and operational objectives through a long-term sole partner arrangement that will enable meaningful collaboration and expand Sunwater’s capacity and capability to

meet current and future demand for engineering and professional services. “Sunwater has a proud legacy of delivering bulk water infrastructure for Queensland’s agricultural, urban, and industrial customers for over 80 years, and we are honored to expand our partnership to help develop and deliver its pipeline of major infrastructure projects,” said Mark McManamny, chief executive of AECOM’s Australia and New Zealand region. “AECOM has a rich history of collaboration with Sunwater and, as the joint venture named as the sole Engineering and Professional Services Provider, our technical specialists will draw on our deep experience in delivering complex programs to unlock the benefits of a longer-term program management approach.”

“To successfully deliver a substantial and complex capital works program, Sunwater needs to work with the industry’s best,” said Sunwater CEO Glenn Stockton. “Our partnership with the Prosperity joint venture will provide the additional skills and capabilities our workforce needs to ensure we continue to build, operate, and maintain water infrastructure assets critical to Queensland’s economy.” Sunwater, a statutory Queensland Government-owned corporation, owns AUD$13.7B in assets and operate 31 Bulk Water and Irrigation Supply schemes and 14 pipelines that extend from the lower Mary River, north of Gympie to Mareeba in far north Queensland, south-west of the State from Toowoomba to St George and north-west almost to Cloncurry.

in a retirement facility and donated more than $15 million to various charitable causes in the last few years. It was a good time to make them an offer that reflected the time on market and condition of the house, so we did and we bought it. Over the last seven weeks we have done a significant renovation of the place. We got so much done in such a short time in spite of shortages of good subs here even I am impressed with it myself. Sourcing everything ourselves, scheduling everyone carefully, and being there every day to get the quality we wanted has been very gratifying for both my wife and myself. And we have been doing physical work every single day, from putting stuff together to laying carpeting to hanging wallpaper and blinds and cutting up boxes. On top of it is the grueling chore of moving out of a 4,000-square- foot place with 7,000 square feet of stuff in its garages, sheds, attics, and basements. Every day my wife and I are completely exhausted but also happy to be back in the game. We are both losing weight in spite of eating out every night. Being back in the phase of doing something where you can see the progress of your efforts every day has been very gratifying. While we all have our big long-term company- building projects that preoccupy our daily thinking, it’s good to have something more tangible to work on for a change. And while I am not as good at multi-tasking as I once was, I can still keep it all together and keep all those other plates spinning in the air while we get this effort wrapped up. I recently turned 66. I’m in pretty good shape for a person my age, but there’s not as much gas in the tank as there once was. That said, one thing I know is we all need new challenges, variety in our daily routines, and to see tangible results from our efforts to be fulfilled. Just gratifying yourself with vacations and new cars and dinners out is not where it’s “at.” It’s getting stuff done that really makes us happy. It’s a basic human need and one we should not ignore or repress. Mark Zweig is Zweig Group’s chairman and founder. Contact him at mzweig@zweiggroup.com.

MARK ZWEIG, from page 5

just weren’t performing like they once did. Everything took too much supervision and I didn’t have the time for it. So we decided to start phasing out of the business. We finished up our projects. We sold off our rental properties one by one. We didn’t replace workers who left. We paid a ton of taxes because we didn’t reinvest in real estate. Over a period of years we got out of everything. We sold the last building – a 21,000-square- foot multi-tenant center – a couple months ago. And even though we are carrying the note on it for the next two years, we don’t have to worry about it at this point. That was the last asset owned by Mark Zweig, Inc. So that brings us to the present. We currently live in a mostly original 124-year-old Victorian house on a 1.1 acre lot in town. It was a largely original house we bought in November of 2021 and did a quick rehab on and moved into. My wife wanted to live closer in and we left a fantastic modern house about four miles away for this one. We did a lot of work on it but did not bring it up to the standard of what we used to do. It was too original and had too much character to completely gut it. We built a new garage with a gym and bathroom and made it look fantastic. And we carved off a .47 acre corner lot that could be easily built on. But I always felt it would not be the house I wanted to stay in forever. We got a great deal on it and our work created a lot of value. So I started looking around casually for something else, hoping I could sell my wife on it if I found a deal. One thing I have learned about real estate over the years is to look at Zillow every morning, first thing. This is how you know what is selling and how much it is selling for. In real estate, you make money when you are buying, and you make money when you are selling. We always bought properties either the day they hit the market or after they languished on the market for a year or two. The house we bought recently was in the latter category. A giant mid-century modern house with two later Marlon Blackwell-designed additions 3/4 mile away had been on the market for a long time. The original owners were

THE ZWEIG LETTER APRIL 1, 2024, ISSUE 1531

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OPINION

Space for failure

P arenthood, much like a career, is a lifelong learning experience. As a project manager, I see similarities between the lessons my kids teach me and the lessons to be learned in our industry. The latest lesson came when I took my 3-year-old son skiing for the first time over the holidays. We must seek out the rare opportunities for safe failure and make the most of them to help our employees reach their full potential.

Rachel Wilde

Internally, the stakes were high for me. I really wanted my son to enjoy his time on the slopes and I wanted him to succeed. While it would have been OK if he did not enjoy skiing, I would do my very best to give him the opportunity to succeed and have a good time. Following a morning of him taking lessons, I took him to lunch. Afterward, we would hit the “magic carpet” to see what he had learned. I presumed I would stand with him, walk down the slopes, and generally just be there to ensure he did not fall. Much to my surprise, when I tried getting on the magic carpet with him, he pointed to the base of the slope and told me to wait at the bottom for him. For a couple of seconds, I waited, and he firmly repeated himself. Reluctantly, I respected his wishes and nervously waited at the bottom – and he did fantastic. The second time around, he crossed his ski tips and fell. I rushed over to help him up and, again, he demanded I go back to the bottom. The next time,

he almost did the same thing but ended up catching himself. This time I was able to laugh about it, proud of my son’s rapid progression on the slopes. For the next couple of hours, he skied on his own while I watched. He enjoyed it so much that he skied until his little legs got so tired, he could hardly walk – let alone keep on skiing. In our day jobs, the ability to let go and give someone the space to stumble – and more importantly recover – can be very difficult. Many admired managers I have worked with and others who I have observed from afar, can struggle with letting their employees fail. They want to keep their employees happy, and this can impede their employees’ growth. The managers put more and more on their own plate while shielding their employees from failure. The employees then fail to learn the hard lessons that their manager once had to learn to succeed at their job. While sheltering an employee from failure may keep employees

THE ZWEIG LETTER APRIL 1, 2024, ISSUE 1531

comfortable, we are doing a disservice to their potential. As managers, it is our obligation to seek out opportunities for “safe failures” for our employees to help them learn, recover, and, ultimately, reach their full potential. To bring back the parenthood analogy, a safe failure is not asking your toddler to cross the street by themselves because they must learn eventually. A safe failure means it is OK for your toddler to fall while skiing without you right there to catch them. Similarly, a safe failure in the office is not pushing your inexperienced employee in front of a difficult client alone. We learn from our mistakes, but seeking the right opportunity to make a mistake is not always at the front of our mind. These learning opportunities for our employees may take more time than if you had done it yourself, but the level of comprehension 1. Internal tools with oversight. Repetitive tasks can be streamlined by creating standard tools such as spreadsheets, word documents, programs, etc. Giving a less experienced employee the opportunity to create a tool is a great opportunity for learning and a safe place for failure. A thorough review of the tool by the manager as well as a third party can be an opportunity for the employee to learn from any mistakes. 2. Internal presentations. Similar to the tool, an internal gained from stumbling cannot be matched. Low stakes learning opportunities include:

presentation about a technical topic is a great opportunity for your employee to learn. Any mistakes found within preparation of the presentation – with a mentor’s review – provide for a low stakes learning opportunity. 3. Quality control. Routine and early quality control present an opportunity for learning but catching a mistake is not enough. As managers, it is important to discuss what mistake(s) you found, explain the mistake(s) to the employee, as well as deconstruct any resolution. It is also critical to ensure there is enough time to catch mistakes early. An internal review conducted with ample time before the formal deadline gives employees an opportunity to correct their mistakes without a scramble and a rush. When managers notice a mistake and correct it themselves, they are taking away a safe learning opportunity. To be clear, I have yet to see an employee tell a manager to back off as eloquently as my 3-year-old. However, even without clear verbalization, it is essential to our industry. Failure is rarely an option when it comes to design and construction. Because of this, we must seek out the rare opportunities for safe failure and make the most of them to help our employees reach their full potential. Rachel Wilde is a senior associate and project manager in Walter P Moore’s Structural Group. She can be reached at rwilde@walterpmoore.com.

THE ZWEIG LETTER APRIL 1, 2024, ISSUE 1531

OPINION

This approach ensures the foundation of change is built on a solid understanding of human behavior, enabling more sustainable firm-wide implementation. Approach change at the individual level

C hange management within architecture, engineering, and construction companies is crucial in today’s fast-evolving marketplace. These firms are navigating through a sea of emerging technologies, shifting customer demands, and intensifying competition. Effectively managing and adapting to changes is paramount. A pivotal aspect of successful change management in AEC companies lies in understanding and leveraging the change adoption curve at the individual level, emphasizing a people-first approach.

Stjepan Mikulić

Often, AEC firms strategize changes at the leadership level, anticipating seamless adaptation by all employees. This approach, mirroring the governance of countries, appears logical at first glance. However, this overlooks the significant variance in individual readiness for change, a critical oversight given the smaller scale of companies compared to national populations. Everett Rogers’ 1962 seminal work, Diffusion of Innovations , introduces the change adoption curve, illustrating the spectrum of organizational members from “innovators” to “laggards.” This model not only delineates the categories of adopters but also suggests that the acceptance of innovations follows a pattern where market share (adoption level) grows

gradually before skyrocketing as adoption becomes widespread. See Rogers’ adoption curve on page 10. This curve subtly indicates that effective change management strategies should engage with the left side of the curve – focusing on “innovators,” “early adopters,” and the “early majority.” These groups are naturally inclined toward change, driven by a readiness to explore new opportunities and lead movements. Their intrinsic motivation to push boundaries makes them ideal starting points for implementing change. Furthermore, the conventional mistake many companies make is to concentrate their efforts on a singular team or project, hoping to incubate change

THE ZWEIG LETTER APRIL 1, 2024, ISSUE 1531

TRANSACTIONS PAPE-DAWSON

ENGINEERS,

LLC

hydrology and hydraulics, and surveying. The firm is headquartered in Statesboro, Georgia with a second office in Atlanta. Maxwell-Reddick is Pape-Dawson’s first acquisition in Georgia. “This acquisition supports Pape-Dawson’s long-term strategy to expand our markets and services through thoughtful partnerships with leading firms across the nation,” said Pape-Dawson President, Gene Dawson. “Maxwell-Reddick’s technical expertise coupled with their

leadership’s commitment to employee satisfaction make the firm a strong addition to the Pape-Dawson family.” “Maxwell-Reddick and Pape-Dawson share similar values, not only in our work but also in our people,” stated Charles “Joey” Maxwell, President at Maxwell- Reddick. “Joining Pape-Dawson allows us to offer expanded resources for our clients and increased opportunity for our employees to grow with us. We’re excited for the future together.”

ACQUIRES

GEORGIA-BASED

FIRM

MAXWELL-REDDICK Pape-Dawson Engineers, LLC has acquired Georgia- based engineering firm, Maxwell- Reddick, as part of its strategy to expand its industry-leading civil engineering, surveying, and land planning practice across the United States. Maxwell-Reddick was founded in 1964 and provides a wide range of services including land planning, civil engineering,

in a controlled environment. While this approach might seem efficient, it inadvertently limits the scope of feedback and learning, potentially skewing outcomes with a narrow set of data, especially if we’re trying to implement change in a larger organization. A more effective strategy involves spreading the initiative across multiple small teams. By identifying and empowering change champions (from the left side of the aforementioned change adoption curve) within various teams, locations, or projects, firms can harvest a rich diversity of feedback and insights. This method not only fosters a more inclusive environment for change but also allows for a broader understanding of what strategies resonate across different segments of the organization. The implications of this approach are profound. By engaging with change at the individual level and recognizing the unique paths different employees take along the adoption curve, AEC companies can foster a more resilient and adaptable organizational culture. This culture not only embraces change but thrives on it, leveraging the collective strengths and perspectives of its workforce. Moreover, having our initiative decentralized with multiple teams or projects offers us a wide range of learning opportunities and ways in which to adapt to the implementation process. This point is especially important when we’re considering technological change, as having more experts ultimately make it easier for them to work (and not be overwhelmed by support requests), and it means a faster adoption of technology in the firm, as there’ll be more in-house experts. From the perspective of these change champions, they’ll be more inclined to stay in the company and lead the change in their environment. Ultimately, the journey of change management is a testament to the power of individual agency within the collective

framework of an organization. It highlights the critical role of empathy, understanding, and strategic planning in navigating the complexities of change. As AEC companies continue to evolve in this dynamic landscape, their success will be increasingly dependent on their ability to foster an environment where change is not just managed but embraced at every level. This people-first approach ensures that the foundation of change is built on a solid understanding of human behavior, enabling a more effective and sustainable implementation of change across the organization. Stjepan Mikulić is founder and CEO of AI in AEC. Connect with him on LinkedIn . Everett Rogers’ change adoption curve, illustrating the spectrum of organizational members from “innovators” to “laggards” ( source ).

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THE ZWEIG LETTER APRIL 1, 2024, ISSUE 1531

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